KIERAN GILBERT, HOST: Let's bring in the Shadow Foreign Affairs Minister Penny Wong. Just heartbreaking images, Penny Wong, for Lebanon, a nation that's had its fair share of torment over the years.

SENATOR PENNY WONG, SHADOW MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Absolutely heartbreaking and devastating. And I express on behalf of the Labor Party, as Anthony Albanese has, our sympathy to the people of Lebanon, our urging of the Government to provide any support we are able, our deepest condolences to - we know there's been an Australian lost, confirmed - to their family and loved ones, but more broadly to the Lebanese community in Australia.

It's a substantial community. It's a close-knit community. It's a community where we will have many people who have friends and family in Beirut, about whom they're worried and we express our solidarity with that community and hope that they are able to come together, at least virtually, during this difficult time.

GILBERT: Yeah, indeed, it's a very large diaspora in this country from Lebanon. And the tragic situation looks like the death toll will rise significantly. And it comes, Penny Wong, at a time when that country and its economy was already teetering on the edge.

WONG: Yes, this is a region and a country that has been troubled for a long time, which has been hard hit by the economic consequences of the pandemic, as well as regional instability and conflict.

We've asked the Government and they have arranged a briefing for me and others from the Department of Foreign Affairs, to get some sense of the consequences for Lebanon at this time.

But as you say, this is a country that has already had its fair share of tragedy. And so it is very, very sad to see this occurring.

GILBERT: And the early reports are, these are not confirmed, but just initial reports out of Lebanon, suggests that it might have been just a tragic accident with a huge amount of explosive material on the wharf there and a welding incident might have caused this, what some observers had said it looked and felt like an atom bomb.

WONG: Yes, it was an enormous explosion. I've seen those public reports. Obviously, I'm not in a position to confirm them. But I've seen the public reports which suggest it was a very large holding of ammonium nitrate and without appropriate safety arrangements in relation to it. But as I say those are not reports I'm in a position to confirm.

What I can say is, we would urge the Government to provide any support both to the local Australian Lebanese community but also to the Lebanese authorities as is appropriate, and express our condolences and support for the people of Lebanon.

GILBERT: The Prime Minister, on another front, if we turn our attention to the major strategic competition in our region. He's spoken about the need for a durable, strategic balance in the Indo Pacific. For likeminded nations to act more cohesively, more consistently, more often to align, is the way that he put it. Obviously that's all about China. Do you agree with that sense of, of needing to balance China out with likeminded nations?

WONG: This is consistent with what we've been saying for some time.

The importance of working with both allied and aligned nations to generate, to create, to support the sort of region we want - one that is not only stable and prosperous, but in which sovereignty is respected and to with other nations who are also dealing with both a more assertive, more nationalistic China, but also a US Administration which is behaving differently to the way in which we have become accustomed to America behaving in the region.

I'd say about the Prime Minister, you know, leadership is more than a zoom chat and leadership is more than giving speeches. If he's serious about showing leadership in the region, then he has to actually deliver; deliver more than words.

There's been an absence of leadership from the Prime Minister, from Mr Morrison and from this Government when it comes to the region.

We've seen reductions in development assistance to the region, we've seen cuts to assistance to Papua New Guinea, we've seen cuts to health assistance to Indonesia, something that was extremely short sighted. We see an absence of leadership on economic recovery. That is something which is so important, particularly to Indonesia, but to the countries of Southeast Asia. And we see an absence of leadership on climate change.

So I'd say to the Prime Minister, Mr Morrison that you've got the right idea, but you've got to deliver.

GILBERT: Now, we will explore a little bit of that in a moment because I do want to ask you about exactly where the flaws are, in your view in that sense and where the opportunities are. But China has a role to enhance regional security, says the Prime Minister, commensurate with its new status. Is that something that you'd be comfortable with?

WONG: I agree that we have to work towards what I've described as a settling point; that is a coexistence between the US and China and as between China and the other nations of the region.

And it is important for us as we see much more strident language, as we see escalation of competition between the United States and China, to be aware that Australia's interests are in an equilibrium; they are in a settling point in which the great powers and the nations of the region can peacefully coexist on terms that we seek.

And of course, the terms we seek are not any terms. They're not acceptance of a hegemony or acceptance of coercion. The terms Australia seeks is a region, as I said, where sovereignty is respected, whether you're a large or small nation, where we have international law, international rules as a way of managing conflict of resolving disputes and of working together collectively.

GILBERT: Now, so it sounds like overall the message is right in your view today. It's interesting. Julie Bishop, Former Foreign Minister, now Chancellor at ANU, she spoke to Mark Kenny on his podcast. It's called the Democracy Sausage, and basically, she said that, I'll read a little bit of what she said to Mark because it's quite interesting, I want to get your thoughts on it. She said, Julie Bishop, it's been interesting to watch the change in language towards China, describing it as now "overt criticism" and asked, should we have front run on the covert inquiry, she said, "I'm not sure that we've had a detailed response from the Government on that. I was surprised," is what Julie Bishop said.

What do you, what do you make of her remarks?

WONG: I agree with her. I mean, Julie Bishop, we had our differences, but she does understand what diplomatic leadership is. And she's pointing to a lack of diplomatic leadership from the Government.

I have been critical, as has however many of my colleagues about the way in which the Government went about announcing that inquiry into the origins of the virus. As Anthony Albanese said, of course it's unremarkable that the world would want to know how the virus started and how we manage the pandemic. But that we failed to get people locked in behind us before we made an announcement, before Marise Payne went on Insiders to make the announcement I think, was not the sort of practice that was in Australia's interests. I think it demonstrated a desire to put domestic political announcements first.

In terms of Julie's point, which I think is pretty well made, about language and overt language; the point I've made is talking tough is not the same as being tough.

And we've had a lot of tough talks from people like George Christensen. We've had a lot of tough talk by other backbenchers who see an interest in escalating the domestic political rhetoric on China. I have said, as have others on the Labor side, we need to be adult about this.

We need to have a sensible discussion about how we deal with the China relationship, recognising we have very significant differences. We have to think about how we manage those. How do we have a productive relationship, bearing in mind our interests, both in our sovereignty, democracy but also our economic interests, which are about real people and real jobs.

GILBERT: Is it a problem where some of the criticisms take the limelight because the Foreign Minister is too quiet. Because if you go back to Gareth Evans, Alexander Downer, Julie Bishop, Stephen Smith, Kevin Rudd... Julie Bishop in in a big way has been out there leading the debate. Does Marise Payne need to step up in that sense because she does the odd news conference, a bit of radio on the phone. But I mean, surely, the Foreign Minister needs to be leading this debate, not reacting to it?

WONG: Yes she does. Yes, Marise does need to step up more and she needs to demonstrate the sort of leadership that you've described.

And the failure to do that, or the absence of that, means that too much of the debate is led by Coalition backbenchers who seek to make their views more and more strident because they think there's some political benefit for them in it. And that's not a good thing for the country.

So I would continue to encourage Marise to lead the debate more, to enter the debate more.

Foreign policy isn't something out there. Foreign policy has come to Australia in a very different way.

The job of the Foreign Minister is to explain Australia to the world and the world to Australia, and it is to lead the debate in Australia, to lead the discussion in Australia, about how we manage these challenging relationships, how we manage this changing strategic environment we see.

The point is this is a very different time for Australia.

There is an enormous deal of change in the world. We've got the pandemic, escalating competition between the great powers, a focal point is in our region, we have multilateralism fraying.

We need a Foreign Minister and a Prime Minister who will lead that discussion, show leadership, domestically and internationally, and always focus on what we need to do in Australia's national interest, not on domestic politics and domestic political announcements.

GILBERT: And just to go back to a point you made earlier if we can to finish up today, and this relates to this crisis, because often times of crisis it's you know, for Australia as a leader in our region, particularly the Pacific but also Southeast Asia. If you read the foreign policy white paper or the defence update, whatever, you know, recent Government document you want to read, they always talk about the pre-eminence for us of Southeast Asia in a security sense. Is it time to use this COVID situation as a as a you know, strategic advantage to Australia that provides support into that region?

WONG: Our security and our economic prosperity is deeply and integrally tied to the security and prosperity of Southeast Asia.

And if we accept that and recognise that and own that, then this Government should be doing far more to show leadership in the region.

Leadership on the pandemic, and the response to it, leadership on economic recovery and charting a way through that, and leadership on climate change and so far they have been unable to do so.

I fear greatly that what we will see in the coming weeks and months and potentially years is a much more fragile Southeast Asia, I hope that is not the case. And that is not a good thing for Australia, nor the region.

So we should act now to avert that future and chart a course to a much better future, which is a much more stable and prosperous Southeast Asia.

We can't do it on our own but we can galvanise a much better response.

GILBERT: You know, I think I said finally, but finally, finally, last question, in terms of leadership, is Anthony Albanese, is he doing alright because at the moment the polls, not too great for him he's copping a bit of criticism. Is he handling the job ok?

WONG: I have enormous faith in Anthony and I know that is shared across the caucus. I have enormous faith in his leadership capacity. I have enormous faith in his integrity. And I have enormous faith in his willingness to look to what is the best thing for the country.

He's a man that looks to deliver and he really, he really means it. And that puts him in a very different light to Prime Minister, Mr Morrison, who I think is all about slogans and announcements, not about delivery.

GILBERT: Penny Wong, thank you. We'll talk to you soon.

WONG: Good to be with you.

Authorised by Paul Erickson, ALP, Canberra.