BEGLEY: This morning Finance Minister Penny Wong is squaring off against shadow attorney-general George Brandis. Good morning to you both, good to have your company again.
WONG: Good morning Terri.
BRANDIS: Morning Terri.
BEGLEY: Its been a while since weve heard from you, Minister Wong.
WONG: Yes, I havent been on for a little while, I think. You had Craig, and others.
BEGLEY: Although the look of the expression on Senator Brandis face; I think hes missed you.
WONG: (laughs) I dont know about that. I cant see him so I couldnt possibly comment.
BEGLEY: Yes of course, Minister Wong is in Canberra, live, and Senator Brandis is in the studio.
Now Penny Wong, your boss has been in contact with Tony Abbott, to see what they can work on as far as asylum seekers, whether they are processed offshore, or onshore. Does this mean shes prepared to ignore the Left in your party, and the Greens, and still pursue the policy of Labor to go offshore with processing?
WONG: We had a very significant decision from the High Court handed down last week, a decision that did change the way in which we understood the law. A decision which, frankly, would have meant that most of the Howard Government policies would not have been permitted. So its obviously a very significant decision the Prime Minister has offered Mr Abbott a briefing, and I hope he does meet up to his promise to work with the Government to resolve these issues.
Theyre not easy issues, and I think Australians understand that these arent easy issues. They havent been for 30 years, and they obviously depend on whats happening. The number of people coming depends on a range of factors in the rest of the world, and the Government has to work through some of these difficult issues after the High Court decision.
BEGLEY: Can you rule out the Government trying to pursue again the Malaysia swap deal, or is that dead in the water now?
WONG: Weve said were going to take our time to work our way through the decision. As I said, it is a different understanding of the law to which had been understood previously, an understanding of the law which would have ruled out the Howard Government policies as well. So, we obviously will work our way through them, and I hope Mr Abbott will do what he says hell do, which is to work with the Government.
BEGLEY: Senator Brandis, if the Coalition was in power, do you agree with that summary, that your policies on offshore asylum seeker processing wouldnt have gotten past the High Court?
BRANDIS: No thats quite wrong, and you only have to read both the High Court decision, and the Solicitor-Generals advice to know that its wrong. You see, the difference that, the big difference between Malaysia and Nauru which is our preferred option is that Malaysia isnt a party to the UN Refugee Convention, and has no intention of becoming one. Nauru is in the process of becoming a party to the UN Refugee Convention, and that process will come to fulfilment on the 26th of September, in less than 20 days time, at which point it will become a fully-fledged party to the UN Refugee Convention.
I actually had a conversation on Saturday afternoon with Mr Matthew Batsiua, who is the Justice Minister of Nauru, and he assured me that upon Nauru becoming a party to the UN Refugee Convention, Nauru would enact in its domestic law whatever domestic laws were necessary to ensure that it was compliant with the Convention, which would in turn satisfy what the High Court found to be missing from the Malaysia Solution. Now, if I can just read you one critical sentence, one critical sentence from the Solicitor-Generals opinion. This is what he says, The coming into force of the Refugee Convention in Nauru has subjected it to obligations under international law which provide at least the elements found to be missing by the majority in last weeks decision in relation to Malaysia. So it makes all the difference.
BEGLEY: So, Senator Brandis, as far as youre concerned, legally, the Government has good grounds to restart Nauru, and worry about it being challenged back in the High Court. Penny Wong, why is your top legal adviser to the Government still hesitant on this?
WONG: Im sure your listeners would be fascinated in George and I arguing the niceties of a High Court case, and the Solicitor-Generals advice. He selectively quoted from that advice, and if people want to go to the advice, theyll see that a lot of issues are raised. The High Court speaks not only of the Refugee Convention, but also what has to be contained in domestic law. And in particular, what rights and entitlements asylum seekers would need to be provided
BRANDIS: It has to be contained within the domestic law or laws giving effect to the Refugee Convention.
WONG: Which at this stage is not what occurs in Nauru. But we can have an argument about what the High Court said. I dont agree, nor does the Solicitor-General, with George Brandis view. Hes entitled to that view, but I think hes wrong. But were the Government, and we need to
BRANDIS: Unfortunately, it was the Solicitor-General who was wrong in giving your Government the advice that he gave it, which your Minister described as very strong advice.
WONG: And he is the most senior legal counsel to the Government, and he would have been were you in government, so lets not play point-scoring on that. The point is here, weve got to move forward, to try to work our way through it, and I hope we can.
BEGLEY: Well this is where we are right now, with Tony Abbott and Julia Gillard exchanging letters, and saying that they are prepared to work with each other. Where will the starting point be on negotiations on refugee policy, Penny Wong?
WONG: Terri, I think Id be announcing the Governments position on your program, which Im sure would be interesting for
BEGLEY: I wouldnt mind if you do.
WONG: (laughs) Im sure you wouldnt mind that, but I dont intend to do that, and I think that there are many things we need to work through as a result of this decision
BEGLEY: Senator Brandis, can I, sorry, Penny Wong.
WONG: Sure.
BEGLEY: Will there be any strings attached to Tony Abbott talking turkey with Julia Gillard?
BRANDIS: Well, the meeting isnt with Julia Gillard, the meeting is with officials, and Mr Abbott and I will be going to that meeting in Brisbane this afternoon. Now, Mr Abbott has set out what the Oppositions position is. I feel a bit sorry for Penny, because, you know, the problem is that the Government doesnt have a position, so, you know, it must be very tantalising for her to ask what the position is.
WONG: George, before you attack, perhaps you could answer the question, which is, what strings are you going to attach to the proposition?
BEGLEY: What are you going to put on the table?
BRANDIS: Mr Abbott has indicated that we favour the Nauru solution. We dont see Malaysia as a solution. Malaysia, by the way Terri, let me remind your listeners, was not about offshore processing. There was no processing of these people who were going to be sent to Malaysia, they were just going to be dumped there.
WONG: Well thats just not true George. I mean, seriously
BRANDIS: There was not going to be processing of those people in Malaysia. A point that
WONG: Dumping is really quite inflammatory.
BRANDIS: Well unfortunately, thats what the policy meant.
WONG: Oversight, engagement with the UN High Commissioner for Refugees.
BRANDIS: Well what does the word engagement mean?
WONG: Really, to use words like dumping in this debate. I just think we have to be careful as politicians about how we speak in this debate
BRANDIS: Thats right.
WONG: Because it is an easy debate to inflame. And regrettably, your side of politics, George, always takes the option of inflaming it.
BEGLEY: Can we go back to this afternoons meeting though. Senator Brandis, what is it that Tony Abbott and yourself are going to put on the table to the Government?
BRANDIS: Well Mr Abbott is the principal, of course. Now, our position has been set out, were there to listen
WONG: George does that mean you dont know, mate? Does that mean you dont know?
BRANDIS: This is a briefing, OK. This is briefing, its not a negotiation. And Mr Abbotts position has been put by him on the public record, most recently in the letter which has been publicly released that he wrote to the Prime Minister yesterday afternoon.
BEGLEY: Yes. And youre not going to tell us any more?
BRANDIS: Well its a briefing. This rather, kind of, tendentious expression what strings are attached we have a policy. We think the Nauru solution was a good solution. The reason were confident in saying it was a good solution is that it actually worked. There were 18 refugee boats in six years before the Labor Party weakened the policy in 2008.
WONG: And everyone who was processed in Nauru almost everybody came to Australia.
BRANDIS: 43 per cent of them, according to the figures Ive seen. But, anyway, just to complete this issue, let me just say this: we do accept that it is desirable if the Nauru solution were to be revived. But it is desirable that there should be legislation to put the matter beyond doubt. Now, I dont think there is a great deal of doubt, if Nauru makes itself compliant with the Refugee Convention, that it would fall under the requirements of the High Courts decision last week. But nevertheless, we can see that for reasons of prudence why the Government would wish to remove any possible doubt, and we would as Mr Abbott has said support them in doing that.
BEGLEY: OK, well I think we probably have talked that one out so far.
WONG: Are we going to talk about magpies now, Terri?
BEGLEY: (laughs) Penny, look, Im getting there. I know youre keen.
WONG: (laughs) I enjoyed listening to that discussion before we came on air.
BEGLEY: And I have a feeling that were going to talk about it again shortly. Youre listening to 612 ABC Brisbane, Inside Canberra, and its 14 minutes to 10. This morning, you are listening to Senator George Brandis, the shadow attorney-general, and Finance Minister, Penny Wong.
Now, the Newspoll yesterday, its inevitable that I was going to bring this up. Your boss, Penny Wong, once again falling to her lowest ever rating as preferred Prime Minister. 34 per cent, thats down 4 points. And if an election were held this week, Labor standing to lose 40 seats, 9 MPs. Can you really turn this around without a change of leader?
WONG: I think the way that were approaching this is to try and ensure we keep focused on doing whats right for the nation. And some of the reforms were putting in place, Terri, are long term reforms.
BEGLEY: But why is the message getting lost on people right now?
WONG: And thats fair enough, and weve got to keep getting out there and arguing it. But can I just put this point: people often say to me they want politicians to think beyond the next election and look at whats right for the country, long term.
Now you may disagree with what were putting forward, but theres no doubt the minerals tax, which is about spreading the benefits of the boom, giving a tax cut to all other companies, plus a head start to small business, is good for the patchwork economy.
Theres no doubt that the carbon tax is about making sure we move to a clean energy future. Theres no doubt that these are issues that are looking to the long term. You may disagree with them, but at least were asking the right question, which is where do we want Australia to be in five or ten years. And we want to have a cleaner energy economy, and an economy thats spread the benefits of the mining boom and is able to compete in the world.
BEGLEY: But you also need faith in the leader of your party by the voters to ensure that this can be done.
WONG: And what Id say to people is Julia is decent, she is tough and shes absolutely focussed on what is in the national interest. And thats how were going to keep approaching government.
BEGLEY: Reports in the last 24 hours quoting senior Labor figures, saying that they are prepared to give her until Christmas for things to turn around.
WONG: I never comment on things that are alleged to have been said by some people somewhere in the paper. My view is this we have a leader, shes prepared to tackle many of the issues that people havent been able to tackle. Climate change, thats been around since John Howard was Prime Minister; a promise to price carbon. She has the votes to carry that through the Parliament. We didnt have that in a majority government last term and I absolutely support what shes doing.
BEGLEY: Senator Brandis would you describe the mood of your side of politics as buoyant in the wake of these figures? This continual poll results, seeing your leader improve each time?
BRANDIS: Look, we read the same figures and we draw our own conclusions. But can I just comment on what Penny said. It sounds fine, but for one very big hole in the middle of the argument. If the Prime Minister, Ms Gillard, had gone to the last election and said I know it might be controversial but I really think its in the national interest to have a carbon tax and had just fallen over the line or gotten the numbers that shes got in the House of Representatives today what Penny says might be fair enough and we could have an argument on the policy merits but not about the legitimacy.
The problem for the advocates of the carbon tax is that everybody in Australia knows Julia Gillard was elected because she promised not to have a carbon tax. And forcing this through the Parliament means that the people will never get to have a say. And I dont know what bizarre view of democracy allows that to happen but people are rightly outraged that first of all, they were lied to and secondly theyre now having this forced down their throats without having been given the opportunity to have a say.
BEGLEY: A quick response Penny Wong?
WONG: Thank you. First, Georges view of democracy was not the one he had when he voted against pricing carbon after going to the 2007 election with a promise to price carbon. The second thing is, I dont think anybody who saw the Labor Party during the last election or previously ever thought we said we would never act on climate change. Our policy was for an emissions trading scheme. Because of the Parliament we have, we have a period of a fixed price which operates like a tax. But the fundamental premise that we didnt say that we said we would not price carbon, we would not take action on climate change, is incorrect.
But I think the point is this, someone at some point has to have the courage to act on climate change. It is true we are asking this generation of Australians to do something. It is not as disastrous as Tony Abbott would have us believe when he says industries are going to end and the sky is going to fall in. But we are saying to this generation of Australians we want you to do something now to make our economy cleaner, to improve our environment so we can ensure we reduce the risk for our children and our grandchildren. And I think that is a good thing.
BEGLEY: I think youve both been given a fair hearing on this. As with most weeks on Inside Canberra, this does tend to come up and we go back over a bit of the ground again.
Moving onto another issue of course it is ten years since the September 11 attacks and people here in Australia are also thinking about what that has meant for our national security what has our Government done in the meantime to ensure we can fight terrorism attacks as best we can. Reports this week of the publishing of the new Indonesian Embassy plans on a government website has created some concerns that it was a major security risk to this nation, having those plans available on the internet. Penny Wong, what do you know of this?
WONG: I dont have any additional information, other than whats in the public arena. Obviously, it is extremely regrettable that this has occurred but I dont have any further information on that. I would say I think governments of both political persuasions have sought to improve our counter terrorism operations, our resourcing of national security issues. And thats a constant task and I think governments of both persuasions we may not have agreed with what we did but that has been something over the last decade since 9/11 weve done.
BRANDIS: A rare moment, or a splendid moment of bipartisanship. The Opposition has supported the Governments counter terrorism measures. Weve had some criticism on particular matters but by and large this is an issue that has been prosecuted in a bipartisan spirit by both sides. I dont know anything have any special knowledge of the Indonesian website but can I just make this point to you. As the shadow attorney-general, I receive regular briefings from ASIO. Can I just say that anyone who thinks that because ten years have gone by since 9/11 that the terrorist threat has abated, is a fool. It is a tribute to our national security agencies that there hasnt been an incident and we should remain vigilant.
BEGLEY: Moving onto another quick issue before we let you both go. This morning Penny Wong, the opposition climate spokesperson Greg Hunt has announced that the Opposition is making a call to the Auditor-General now to take a close look at the management of the Federal Governments solar rebate scheme.
He says there is evidence pointing to millions of dollars being owed to installers by unscrupulous solar traders and he says this happened on the Federal Governments watch, under this program. Will you look at these concerns he says there are Queensland businesses here, small businesses that are going to go to the wall because of the mismanagement of this scheme.
WONG: Well Ive got to say Greg Hunt calls for an Auditor General inquiry almost as often as he asks for a cup of coffee I suspect; its a pretty regular occurrence. But can I say on this issue, I understand there has been some problems with Well Being Green, I think is the company
BEGLEY: In fact no I think thats the one in Victoria. This is a separate incident he brought up this morning. I guess the fact remains youve got people in small business who are heavily exposed to this. Theyre not getting paid by the solar traders.
WONG: Sure. Well lets be clear what our job is. First in relation to the regulatory agencies there is obviously the Australian Securities [and Investments] Commission, the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission and also offices of fair trading in each of the states. And people should refer relevant complaints to those authorities.
In terms of what we have done, our job is to regulate the issue of the solar certificates, the renewable energy certificates and since in the last couple of years weve significantly increased the compliance structure around those certificates. This is legislation that was first introduced by the Howard Government. We have significantly strengthened the regulatory framework.
BEGLEY: So
WONG: Sorry, no, you go ahead Terry. Im not familiar with the precise arrangements which have occurred in relation to the Queensland company. Obviously if this is about contracts between the company and other parties, thats not necessarily regulated by the Federal Government.
BEGLEY: Its not regulated but it is a Federal Government solar rebate scheme. George Brandis?
BRANDIS: Well I think most people who have followed this have realised the solar rebate scheme was another fiasco. I mean its like pink batts
WONG: Hang on George, you supported it.
BRANDIS: Your administration -
WONG: You supported it, come on, give us a break.
BRANDIS: Your administration of solar rebates
WONG: Has improved since weve been in Government
BRANDIS: Has been a fiasco. And its all very well to laugh at Greg Hunt for saying, for calling so often for Auditor-Generals inquiries. The reason the Auditor-General exists is to stop public money being wasted. And there seems to have been more occasions to call in the Auditor General, whether it be pink batts or school halls or solar rebate schemes or whatever under this Government
WONG: This is just the usual diatribe from George Brandis on this, why dont you deal with the issue.
BRANDIS: Penny face up to it. Take responsibility.
WONG: I do take responsibility and perhaps you should take responsibility for some of the financing on your side where we know there is a $70 billion black hole.
BRANDIS: There are credible
WONG: A $70 billion black hole in your costings.
BRANDIS: There are credible reports in this mornings newspapers that there has been fraud and massive waste in the solar rebate scheme. Its entirely appropriate for the shadow minister to say the Auditor-General should look at it. And whats curious and begs explanation is why the Government is trying to avoid the Auditor-General shining light on this.
WONG: Hang on who said that? You just made an accusation, as is your wont, which is not founded. I simply made the comment -
BRANDIS: Penny, you were asked
WONG: I simply made the comment that Greg Hunt regularly calls for Auditor-General enquiries. If you look at some of the schemes, there is no one in Government who will defend what has occurred in relation to the Home Insulation scheme but if you look at how Greg Combet handled that that was absolutely transparent. We were absolutely clear about the need for transparency in making sure, we found what had occurred and remedied it.
BRANDIS: Well Penny your minister
WONG: And I am saying to you
BRANDIS: Will there be an Auditor-General inquiry?
WONG: If there is credible evidence that would warrant an inquiry then absolutely we would be prepared to look at it. But what Im saying also is that our job is to regulate the issue of certificates something which we are doing in a far more stringent way than ever occurred under your Government.
BEGLEY: Up against the news, one quick question. I promised you Id bring it up and Im going to again the magpie issue. It seems the only thing people do want to talk about this morning. I guess, which side on the fence are you on shooting a rogue magpie by police or picking it up and relocating it. Ever been on the other end of a sharp beak yourself?
WONG: I remember when I first arrived in Australia from Malaysia and we lived in the hills. And walking to primary school was a pretty hazardous journey because we used to get swooped a fair bit at certain times of the year. Personally, maybe Im a softie, I just dont want to think about killing creatures.
BEGLEY: Thank you for your time Minister Wong this morning.
WONG: Good to speak with you Terri.
BEGLEY: Penny Wong and her last word on the magpies. A very quick last word from you Senator Brandis.
BRANDIS: I have the opposite view. Given a choice between looking after wildlife and keeping kids safe, Ill go for keeping kids safe every time.
BEGLEY: And there you go, holding an opposite view and being in opposition. Thank you very much for your time again George Brandis.
BRANDIS: Thank you Terri.
BEGLEY: Senator George Brandis and Penny Wong playing Inside Canberra this morning.
ENDS