SMITH: Senator Penny Wong is the Federal Minister for Finance and Deregulation, and shes been good enough to give us a few minutes of her time this afternoon. Senator, good afternoon.
WONG: Good afternoon, good to speak to you again Chris.
SMITH: Now, a couple of things before we go any further. Im confused about whether petrol is out of the equation when it comes to a carbon tax, or does that mean fuel? Because I heard Mark Dreyfus say earlier today that it wasnt fuel, it was only petrol. I watched Julia Gillard at 11:00am say its fuel, and then later she said petrol. Do you know what the definition of what is out is?
WONG: I can help you on that, and I accept that we need to get all of the details out so people can understand just how this policy will affect them. But what the Prime Minister has said, yesterday, and again today, is that all fuel, including petrol, diesel and LPG, for passenger motor vehicles and light commercial vehicles, wont be subject to a carbon price-
SMITH: The truckies still cop it though, right?
WONG: To put it in punter-friendly terms, that means families, tradies, small businesses, wont pay a carbon price on passenger vehicles and light commercial vehicles.
SMITH: Truckies will?
WONG: We havent made any announcement about that, and what Id say to you and Im sure youd prefer it to be different but what Id say to you is that all of these details will be made clear when the full package is released. What we have released because, obviously, people are concerned about it is what will happen in relation to passenger vehicles.
SMITH: Bizarre that Mark Dreyfus, the Parliamentary Secretary, would get the wording of all of that, and the definition of all of that, wrong this morning, and confuse people even further.
WONG: Oh, Ive made much worse mistakes than that one.
SMITH: Tony Windsor is saying today that theres no guarantee the exemption will continue into the future. Weve got the Prime Minister saying forever. WONG: The Prime Minister has made clear what our position is. I think Tony is making I mean he obviously speaks for himself but hes making the obvious point about what future governments might or might not do. What the Prime Minister was talking about is her government. And our position is its not going to be in now, and it wont be in in the future.
SMITH: Right. Its quite bizarre that you wouldnt include petrol. Because if you were an advocate of a carbon tax, if you really believe were, you know, heading down a dangerous path with our carbon emissions, and if you look across the skies of Sydney today, most of the smog we see and theres not much of it most of the smog we see is probably being contributed to by carbon monoxide emissions from vehicles. And yet today we are telling people to drive what they want, because they wont be slugged with a carbon tax for their carbon monoxide emissions. That is barmy.
WONG: Well, on one of the points youve made, which is about pollution, obviously we do have fuel standards in this country, and they do deal with some of the issues youve raised. I think the issue here with a carbon price is were trying to transform how the economy works. And that takes a long time, and that is a process where you need a price signal being given, particularly to business.
And I think the thing to remember is that the carbon price gives a signal to the people generating energy, it doesnt just give a signal to consumers. Were very aware that many people dont have a lot of choice in how much driving they have to do. If you live a long way out, youve still got to come in to work, or youve got to pick up the kids on the way home from work. These arent things you can do often on public transport. And so, we have made clear that we are not going to be including fuel for passenger motor vehicles, as I said.
SMITH: Im worried to this extent. Theres been a deal done, with Christine Milne, and shes confirmed it overnight, where there will be a Productivity Commission review of excise on fuel. Now that indicates to me, I wouldnt have thought shes out there to make sure fuel was cheaper for us. That indicates to me that in about two or three years time, there is an avenue to pick up the tax that we havent had on fuel, for the next two years.
WONG: I cant speak for the Greens, the Greens can speak for themselves. I can tell you what the Governments position is, were not going to be including it for families and tradies now, and not in the future.
SMITH: But well end up paying more if the Productivity Commission reviews excise fuel the way Christine Milne thinks it will, and all of a sudden, yes we wont have a tax for two years, but in three years time we might.
WONG: Theres a couple of ifs in that sentence Chris. And I accept thats your view, I can only tell you what this Government is saying to Australians, and that is not now, and not in the future. So thats the position were putting forward.
SMITH: OK, but we were told there would not be a carbon tax under the Government I lead. You understand Im not trying to be smart here.
WONG: No, no.
SMITH: Is it Scouts Honour this time? So its to be believed?
WONG: Chris, Im happy to talk to you about it, and I know you have a view about it, and I probably wont convince you. But, I dont think anybody would think we went to the last election, or the one before, saying we didnt want to put a price on carbon. We did have a different mechanism, and because we need to get this through the Parliament now and we have Tony Abbott who doesnt want to engage in the way, for example, Malcolm Turnbull and I obviously had a negotiation, we have to put a fixed price for a period. Before we get to whats called an emissions trading scheme, and that does operate like a tax. Now, the Prime Minister has explained her position on that. I understand you have a different view. But, we have always been clear we have to price carbon.
SMITH: OK, youve had a different view as well. Again, not trying to be smart, Im trying to work out who should the public believe. You have said this in the past.
[EXCERPT: We know that you cant have any environmental certainty with a carbon tax.]
SMITH: OK, youve changed your mind?
WONG: You can either have price certainty, or you can have the certainty in terms of the amount of emissions. And its true that a fixed price for a period, youve got to just set the price. And then later, when youve got an emissions trading scheme, you set a target.
But, a fixed price works as a transition. You might not remember Chris, but the legislation I took to the Parliament previously in the previous parliament, had a fixed price for a year. That was what was negotiated with the then Opposition Leader, Mr Turnbull.
SMITH: OK, we went to Copenhagen with the view to joining the world in some kind of reduction in carbon emissions worldwide. Now that didnt happen. Now weve decided to go it alone, will the US follow our lead? This is what Professor Ross Garnaut has been telling us will happen. Little old Australia makes the big move, puts ourselves out there, with, of course, a great risk to industry moving offshore, and opportunities being taken by every other country in the Western world. If those risks are real, why are we taking the chance if were not convinced the US will follow? Will they follow?
WONG: Chris, I dont agree that were going it alone. And the reason that I dont agree is that, if you look at what other countries are doing. If you look even at China, if you look at what Europe has done, if you look at what New Zealand has done, if you look at where South Korea is going, countries have understood that we need to reduce emissions.
And they also get that increasingly, in the years ahead, the nations that are able to produce lower-carbon goods and services, are able to do business in the clean-energy world will do well. So this is about transforming the economy, so I guess I dont accept the premise of your question. I think thats one of the factual problems that we see in this debate. Just as we see Tony Abbott continuing to say petrol prices will go up when weve made it clear
SMITH: But in terms of an actual carbon tax, were not comparing apples with apples here, were comparing apples with oranges. But OK, lets agree to disagree, because we could go forever in terms of that.
WONG: We could.
SMITH: When will this become law? When will we have details all details on the table? When will this become law, and when does this get started?
WONG: In terms of when it becomes public, that will be in the very near future, and the Prime Minister has made that clear. We wanted to announce this around the middle of the year, and thats where we are. In terms of becoming law, ultimately thats a matter for the Parliament. Weve obviously got to get this legislation, like any legislation, through both houses.
SMITH: No chance you could take this to an election?
WONG: Weve made clear what we want to do. We want to get on with pricing carbon. Youve got to remember, this was first raised by a senior politician in 2006, when John Howard committed to a price on carbon. So, half a decade later, were still arguing about it. We want to get on with it, because we think its the right thing to do for the next generation of Australians.
SMITH: Ill let you get on with the rest of your day, thank you very much for your time this afternoon.
WONG: Good to speak with you Chris.
ENDS